First begin by scrapping the original notion that democracy will heal all the world's ills. A democracy can only be as good as the culture that employs it. Iraq is far too tribal, fragmented by religious-ethnic sectarianism, and intolerant.

So.....what you're saying is that not everyone is capable of leading themselves. That backward cultures only function best under the thumb of a dictatorial strongman or imperial power?

So.....what you're saying is that not everyone is capable of leading themselves. That backward cultures only function best under the thumb of a dictatorial strongman or imperial power?

No, everyone is capable of leading themselves, just not necessarily in a way that would meet with the approval of Westerners. American-style democracy is important in that it is requires a good degree tolerance. Do you think America would operate as smoothly as she does if citizen loyalties were tribal and clannish in nature? Or if we didn't accept Enlightenment-era liberal values? I, for one, have no faith that if there were elections today in Saudia Arabia between the new King Abdullah and Osama Bin Laden that Bin Laden wouldn't win. And a secular, pro-Western candidate would have no chance whatsoever.

But if the Sunnis were simultaneously given their own slice of Iraq to govern as their own country they might see that as a net gain for them versus the alternative of being ruled by a Shia majority.

Never. The Sunnis want a part of the oil. And the oil in the Shia part of Iraq. That's why the Sunnis are against federalism. They fear that the individual provinces will profit from their oil and the federation (and the Sunni provinces) will not.

A Kurdish state would be a good idea, for the Kurds. And don't get me wrong, they have deserved it. In the last 50 years a Kurdish state could have protected the Kurds from the Arabs like Israel protected the Jews. (And the Kurds know that!)

But I think to beat Arab nationalism splitting up the Arabs from each other rather than allow them to unite is the better strategy. This would be an anti-imperialist divide and conquer strategy if you so will.

Time will tell . The next test is 15 October. If the constitution is approved, then we will see of the Iraqes can defend themselves. If the cosntitution fails on the 15th, the new government is in the toilet. Last week the Generals told congress we have about 600 members of the Iraq Army that can fight without U S Help. They need to do a LOT better then that. It will take 300 times that number to just equal the American and British troops in Iraq.

There is a big difference in a poll to see of Americans agree with the policies of Bush and a poll on the impact of the war. You would have to poll the terrorists in question which is unlikely. Again, believe that the majority support Bush if that makes you happy. That is NOT the case. It does not matter what the facts show or what experts say, if it does not support Bush they are wrong according to you Bush supporters. That will not prevent the damage he has done to this country.

More of the "same old" crap! As long as it's "your" poll, showing "your" way of thinking then all is fine. But when it's someone else's poll and does not follow your line of thinking then it's wrong. Grow up will ya?

No dummy you would have to poll the right peiple . In this case your poll would have to be the terrorist.

No dummy you would have to poll the right peiple . In this case your poll would have to be the terrorist.

I'm not going to bother with this whole mess. You're wrong! I know you're wrong, "you" know you're wrong. EVERYONE on JU knows you're wrong. Got ya dead to rights on this one. And please learn how to spell.

If they vote aginst the new constitution, which may be the reason the Sunnis are registering, we have a MAJOR problem.

Earth to Gene: We can't vote for them. We are not there to impose anything on them, remember? If, and it's a very big if, the Sunnis vote as a bloc against the constitution, they'll have a major problem, because it will be adopted with or without their votes.

In your world, there is no glass half full, ever.

Cheers,
Daiwa

We are there. That is enough. What you do not understand is that the Moslems DO NOT WANT A NON-MOSLEM country occupying a moslem country. These people do not want us in ANY form in a Moslem country. That is what the CIA experts have told Bush but he does not listen. Last week Karen Hughes, the President's assist was told by a group of 500 young Moslem women that they do not share our vision of democracy. They do not want equal rights for women they want things to remain as they are today. We are forcing a vote on a constitution that retains a single Iraq. Many experts believe that Iraq is three countries that has been forced to be one country and that what the people really want is three separate countries. The Bush policy and the constitution they developed with our help does not provide that option. What we are offering is a system that is acceptable to us. They hate us for being there. We have created many NEW enemies throught the world willing to do us harm BECAUSE we invaded Iraq. We have killed almost 2,000 Americans and have made us LESS not MORE safe.

It seems to me col you are more worried about what the terrorists think than the best wishes for Iraq.

They hate us for being there. We have created many NEW enemies throught the world willing to do us harm BECAUSE we invaded Iraq. We have killed almost 2,000 Americans and have made us LESS not MORE safe.

You are just wrong col. I have showed two polls of muslims which show their support for terrorism has declined, but you ignore that. You worry about what the terrorists think. Terrorists have always hated us col, you either run and hide like a democrat, or you fight. If fighting offends them, so what.

This is not a subject where the masses have the knowledge to express an informed answer. The people that know the Moslems and how they think know our attacking Iraq has put us in greater danger because of the NEW terrorists that have been added to those that hated us BEFORE we invaded Iraq. There have always been terrorists that wanted to do us harm. Our actions have added to their numbers and made them even more resolute to continue attacking us. WE ARE NOT SAFER FROM ATTACKING IRAQ! In addition, Iraq was NEVER a danger to the U. S.We have made Iraq part of the War on Terrorism. It was just an evil dictatorship prior to our invasion and one with a weakened military and No WMD. IF Bush had allowed the UN inspectors to complete their job, he would have learned what we know now- there was no WMD. Saddam most likely wanted everyone to think he had WMD to help retain control and deter others, like Iran , from attacking him.

No matter what we do col, muslims will hate us. It's the fault of islam itself, and nothing else.

Island Dog I agree. We have just added to the number that are willing to attack us! That does not make us MORE secure.

This is not a subject where the masses have the knowledge to express an informed answer.

Yes, only the omniscient Gene has the knowledge.

Cheers,
Daiwa

Daiwa You should look as what the Moslem Governments in the area that have relations with us have said. They have told us that our attacking Iraq has put pressure on them from the terrorists that want to disrupt ANY government that deals with us. Thus, our actions have increased pressuse for more 9/11 attacks in America as well as aginst governments in the greater Middle East that deal with us. I had the opportunity to talk directly with Middle East expents while at the Army War College. I have done a lot of reading from people who have spent their entire lives working in the Moslem World. These experts, for the most part agree, we have NOT MADE AMERICA SAFER by the Iraq War. Our brave military believe they are serving in Iraq to make us safer at home when their efforts have actually made us less safe by embolding our enemies all over the world.