"Those choices were not made in the Green Zone but in the White House by a President that did not have a CLUE as to how and fight the war in Iraq!"

Heh, I assumed you knew about the situation. I see I was wrong. I would suggest before you start debating things you learn of which you speak.

Bremer and others in the green zone were making sweeping policy decisions without consulting the white house, and which the white house had categorically opposed. Bush's fault was a) not caring about who got hired for what, not requiring a stamp off approval before major decisions were made, and c) not removing people and vetoing decisions once they found the people to be inept assholes.

Col, you're all about the rhetoric. You could have very valid arguments, but you're focusing on shoddy moralisms and exclamation points.

Richard Clark is a very knowledgeable individual and to ignore the information he has presented would be stupid. Many of the things he has stated have been confirmed by at least three other Former CIA Section Chiefs and Generals Zinni and Trainer.

President Reagan was a very knowledgable individual, He had a degree in economics yet he was portrayed as a dolt by political hacks, who after he left office and before his death had to admit that his policies did work. The problem with most liberals is that they can only see the here and now and can't see long term solutions. When a serious long term solution is put on the table they cry that it does noting or next to nothing right now. Democeats had all the power for 40 years yet did nothing to solve the problems. Sure they threw money at the problem to look like they were doing something but after 40 years all they can say is they tried. One of those hacks was President Bill Clinton. Look at the facts. In 40 years the Democrats spent 1 trillion dollars to fix the problem with education. They tried and failed. President Bush came up with no child left behind and the first thing the liberals did was undercut the program by teaching the test instead of teaching the material that would be on the test. The reason for this is that if the teachers failed to teach the students they would be held accountable. So the kids still don't get an education because the educators don't wish to take a chance on the students that they might learn something. The liberals spent half a trillion dollars on the war on poverty over 40 years the idea was to get people off wellfare and back to work. President Bush and the conservatives cut wellfare. the liberals cried that Mr. Bush was a racist and hated poor people. The stupid poor people needed the federal teet in order to survive because they could not make it in the hard cruel world without the liberals. Now in order to save government jobs they are on the street looking for people to put on welfare like they did in the 60's to create more government jobs. This means that less people are on welfare and is seen by liberals is a bad thing.

President Bush has and MBA and ran the state of Texas but political hacks cry that he is an idiot that does not know what he is doing. It seems that your insiteful Mr. Clark did nothing to stop 9/11 but as soon as he left the administration began to do his political hack job. You don't have to be ignorant to be a hack.

He got into the Guard to avoid service in Vietnam. His application to the Guard said he DID NOT want to be sent overseas and we all know that during the Vietnam War National Guard Service was the best way not to be sent into war. The old saying, "Women and Children first, then the National Guard"

I don't have a problem with this. This is why I support an all volunteer force. The people in the military today want to be there. They understand the job and the risks, when you have a draft you have people that don't want to be there and serious problems with discipline. It is the only reason the current military has not revoted as the 70's era military did. We don't have a serious problem with drug abuse as we did back then.

He got into the Guard with the help of his father's contacts (Ben Barns and BG George Rose). Bush had one of the LOWEST Flight Test Scores but despite this and given the fact he had NO prior military training, was given a direct commission ahead of 150 others for a Guard Slot.

This story has been disputed for years and no one within the system has said on record that the story was even close to being true. The best evidence of this was that CBS had only forged documents to support the story.

He failed to take a REQUIRED Flight Physical and as a result was grounded ( I have a copy of his Grounding Order ).He did not attend drills at any location for a period of 5 months in 1972. As you know, following orders and regulations are the ESSENTIAL component of military discipline. Bush failed to follow Air Force Regulations to take the required physical and attend drills. Flight officers that are grounded are subject to a mandatory Board of review. There is NO record of this board of Review. When members of the Guard and reserve failed to attend drills, they were to be reported to their component (The Air Force in this case) for activation. That did not happen when Bush did not attend drills.

What you leave out is the fact that his unit was changing over to a new aircraft and the expense of training someone who was leaving service would be a waste of money. He requested a transfer so he could go to school something that would have given him an automatic deferral from any service if you remember. So if he did not wish to serve all he had to do was go back to college. So he did not need to get into the Guard to avoid service. Everyone that is alive who was there said his father had nothing to do with him getting into the guard. Yet the stories persist. Why believe the people who were there when you can believe the ones that were not? It makes sense to support the people that were not there if it proves your case or agrees with your religion of hate the man.

Despite his refusal to obey these two requirements, GWB was granted an EARLY HONORABLE Discharge. I have communicated with the economics Professor for GWB at Harvard and he confirmed to me that GWB told him that his father's contacts got him into the guard and arranged for his early honorable discharge. Bush by his refusal to take that physical and maintain his flight status, for which he was trained, and his failure to attend drills for 5 months did NOT EARN him an Honorable Discharge! Bush should have been disciplined.

As stated above the people that are in the know say different. He was given the early out to go to Harvard. How do you explain why Mr. Bush was not brought up on charges for his refusal? He was under a different commander at that time so it can't be political strings that were pulled or is it your contention that the entire military bowed down to Congressman Bush and kept it out of the papers to protect him?

Yes the Sierra Club is a left wing organization but their contention that Global Warming is taking place has been documented by NOAA. When you look at the majority of my sources any claim they are mostly left wing, as some on this Blog site have said is simply untrue.

Better check the site again NOAA is backing away from that lie as fast as they can. Read my article Global Warming is Real. It is a truncated version of my book I wrote for fun a few years ago. It points out little things the "experts" missed in their desire to gain government funding. Also check out the UN site as they have retracted their statemtnts that man is the largest cause of greenhouse gasses. It seems that cow farts are. Under this new light do you propose to ban cows instead of SUV's?

The left wing takes information from anyone that will support their claims, and when that information is proven wrong they continue to site that incorrect information as you just did on global warming. Yes, the earth is getting hotter. No, man is not the cause as the liberals scream. Same facts different interpretations of those facts. Man is not the evil of the world and our being here does little to the earth. Our being here my kill man through ignorance and a few animals but the earth will still be here. If you really want to make the earth the way it was before man came on the scene then we would have to have carbon dioxide atmosphere which would kill off all the plants and animals on the planet. Then the rightful owners will take over again. Of course they are almost all but wiped out by their own farts. They consume carbon and fart oxygen. Oops their mistake.

Bakerstreet

The choice to not follow the invasion plan, not to follow established doctrine or the advice of the Army CoS and send the 500,000 troops was Bush. When Bremer got to Iraq and saw that the troop levels were not enough to control the growing violence and he asked Bush for more troops. Bush DID NOT send them.

The decision to dismantle the Iraqi Army, Police and Civilian Workers was not made by Brenner. On pages 193 and 194 of State of Denial, Woodward quotes Bremer when Garner questioned the order to begin the De-Baathification and dismantle military, police and Civilian Government, " Those are my instructions ( Bremer replied) and I intend to execute them" Garner said, "Hell you won't be able to run anything if you go this deep." “I told you Bremer said, I have my instructions"

Those instructions did not originate with Bremer. They were developed at the White House. Thus Bush sent only 1/3 the U.S. forces THE GENERALS SAID WERE NEEDED AND THEN dismantled the Iraqi military, police and Civil Government. The result is what we see today-- Violence and a country in Civil War in the Sunni/Shiite areas. We are sending more troops into what is a civil war. Only the 4,000 Marines going into the western area to fight the Foreign Terrorists is justified!

We should be sending the 17,500 troops going to the Civil War in Baghdad into Afghanistan.

Bakerstreet The choice to not follow the invasion plan, not to follow established doctrine or the advice of the Army CoS and send the 500,000 troops was Bush. When Bremer got to Iraq and saw that the troop levels were not enough to control the growing violence and he asked Bush for more troops. Bush DID NOT send them. The decision to dismantle the Iraqi Army, Police and Civilian Workers was not made by Brenner. On pages 193 and 194 of State of Denial, Woodward quotes Bremer when Garner questioned the order to begin the De-Baathification and dismantle military, police and Civilian Government, " Those are my instructions ( Bremer replied) and I intend to execute them" Garner said, "Hell you won't be able to run anything if you go this deep." “I told you Bremer said, I have my instructions" Those instructions did not originate with Bremer. They were developed at the White House. Thus Bush sent only 1/3 the U.S. forces THE GENERALS SAID WERE NEEDED AND THEN dismantled the Iraqi military, police and Civil Government. The result is what we see today-- Violence and a country in Civil War in the Sunni/Shiite areas. We are sending more troops into what is a civil war. Only the 4,000 Marines going into the western area to fight the Foreign Terrorists is justified! We should be sending the 17,500 troops going to the Civil War in Baghdad into Afghanistan.

Skipping over Paladin again I see. And why is that? Is it because he's dead on and you have no evidence to refute him?

"The choice to not follow the invasion plan, not to follow established doctrine or the advice of the Army CoS and send the 500,000 troops was Bush. When Bremer got to Iraq and saw that the troop levels were not enough to control the growing violence and he asked Bush for more troops. Bush DID NOT send them."

I can't discuss this with someone that poses urban legend as fact. I suggest you look into what really happened and then try again.

Paladin77

"I don't have a problem with this. This is why I support an all volunteer force." In 1968 that was not the case and the fact remains the Guard was the BEST way to avoid Vietnam which is what Bush did. Cheney was more direct, he used 5 deferments.


He got into the Guard with the help of his father's contacts. That is not in dispute. Mr. Barns has stated in public that he did get Bush into the Guard like other young men whose parents had pull. Bush had NO experience and his flight aptitude scores would have prevented him from receiving a Direct Commission without Daddy. He stepped ahead of 150 other men that did not have the same pull as GHWB.

His records PROVE he did not take a REQUIRED Physical and as a result was grounded. Changing units and aircraft had NOTHING to do with the requirements to take an annual Flight Physical. Bush disobeyed Air Force Regulations and most likely a Direct Order from his commanding officer to take the physical. It states that on the Grounding Order. His pay records show he did not attend drills ANYWARE for 5 months in 1972. His statements to Professor Tsurumi confirm the fact that it was Daddy that got little George into the Guard and out of the guard!

NOAA has documented the increase in Ocean temperatures and the melting of the ice caps has been documented by several agencies.

Bakerstreet

The choice to not follow the invasion plan, not to follow established doctrine or the advice of the Army CoS and send the 500,000 troops was Bush. When Bremer got to Iraq and saw that the troop levels were not enough to control the growing violence and he asked Bush for more troops. Bush DID NOT send them."


“I can't discuss this with someone that poses urban legend as fact. I suggest you look into what really happened and then try again.”

Sorry, Op Plan 1003, the recommendation of Gen. Shinseki, the request for more troops by Bremer are NOT "URBAN LEGENS" they are FACT. Even after Gen Franks was pressured to cut the force levels in OP Plan 1003 (the invasion of Iraq) the LOWEST TROOP LEVERS Gen. Franks developed was 360,000. Bush sent about 150,000! Every major military officer has said we did not have the required troop levels to establish and maintain control over the sectarian violence in Iraq.

Paladin77

As a Marine please do not tell me that members of our military have the choice as to which orders and regulations they obey. This is not gray area. It is BLACK and WHITE. Bush requested a change in units from Texas to Alabama. That request was refused.

The other issue that is very strange is that there is NO record of the mandatory Board when Bush was grounded. That is required and in the over 400 pages of the Bush military records there is northing about this Board. There is not even anything that documents the Board was ever convened as REQUIRED. HOW STRANGE. The Air Force spent a lot of money to train Bush as a Pilot. Bush failed to fly the required hours to maintain his flight qualification. It takes double the drills for a pilot then for non-pilot Guard Members. The final straw was his grounding for not taking a REQUIRED Annual Flight Physical. If ANY other member of the Air Guard had done what Lt. Bush did, they would have been punished!

Let's talk about the 800 lb gorilla that no one wants to bring up about the refusal of Lt. Bush to take his flight physical. WHY would any rational person risk the consequences of not following Air Force regulations and take the physical. It is not hard and if the timing was a problem it could have been rescheduled. At that time the Drug problem was very real and the military was conducting drug tests. Was there something that Lt. Bush was afraid would become known if he took that physical?

This is the ONLY rational answer most people have been able to come up with as to why Lt. Bush would risk the fallout from not taking his physical. Was he taking drugs that would have shown up? We Know Bush had a problem with Booze until about the age of 40. He had his driver’s license suspended two times.

Paladin77 and Bakerstreet

Cat got your tongs

NOAA has documented the increase in Ocean temperatures and the melting of the ice caps has been documented by several agencies.

This is true. The cause of the increases is what is in dispute. Nutjobs say it is man that is the cause. Serious minded people look at the facts and say that there is no proof one way or the other. Nutjobs say that just because there is no proof we should not take the chance because scientest say that if we wait ten years we will all die. The same crap they said about global cooling 30 years ago. It is junk science with very little science and a lot of political junk. I remember a NYT Sundy magazine with a picutre of NYC burried in snow three quarters the hight of the Empire State Building and we are all going to die; that was 1965. The problem is that the Nutjobs use only half the truth to prove their point. I strongly suggest you read my article cause your answer was destroyed in it.

The other issue that is very strange is that there is NO record of the mandatory Board when Bush was grounded. That is required and in the over 400 pages of the Bush military records there is northing about this Board. There is not even anything that documents the Board was ever convened as REQUIRED. HOW STRANGE.

I find strange that 400 pages of his official record are missing. Here is why I find it strange. Through the freedom of information act I received a copy of my military records. Including my medical records they totaled 35 pages covering 13 years of service. I know that 5 pages were withheld for specific reasons, plus my fitness reports which are not released except for extremely special situations another ten pages but that brings the total to 45 pages. Given flight qualification takes a bit more paper work I still can’t see how such a short career could come up with 400 pages let alone 400 missing pages. Maybe you can explain it to me. General Frank Peterson, aviator that served in Korea and Vietnam and retired in the 80’s had a record book that was almost an inch thick after 30 years of service. Add to that his medical records which I did not see but will assume is half as thick, ok make it the exact same size of an inch. That comes to about 200 pages covering 30 years of distinguished flight service in two wars yet you claim that there are 400 missing pages of an officer who served less than ten years and was not stationed outside CONUS. Using your figures an officer who served 30 years should have a record book with 1,200 pages in it. This is what I find hard to believe.

As a Marine please do not tell me that members of our military have the choice as to which orders and regulations they obey. This is not gray area. It is BLACK and WHITE. Bush requested a change in units from Texas to Alabama. That request was refused

Yes, I do believe that one may pick and choose which orders, rules and regulations can follow or obey. You have the choice to rob a bank or kill anyone you please. No one is stopping you from doing it. The laws are only enforced when you break those laws. If Mr. Bush chooses to refuse orders then he would be put on Hack or brought up on charges. You yourself say that there is no record of this happening so based on your words and your sourses he did not break the rules, or regulatons or disobey the officer he reported to. He was grounded as the rules demand for not haveing a current physical on file.

Yes, I do believe that one may pick and choose which orders, rules and regulations can follow or obey. You have the choice to rob a bank or kill anyone you please. No one is stopping you from doing it. The laws are only enforced when you break those laws. If Mr. Bush chooses to refuse orders then he would be put on Hack or brought up on charges. You yourself say that there is no record of this happening so based on your words and your souses he did not break the rules, or regulations or disobey the officer he reported to. He was grounded as the rules demand for not having a current physical on file.

I have been saying the same thing since I started here. The col has yet to answer that one. Care to try now col? If you do "not" have evidence of him being put on hack or being court marshalled then I would guess your theory is just junk.

Paladin77

"Yes, I do believe that one may pick and choose which orders, rules and regulations can follow or obey" Here are the problems with that.

First, yes what you say is possible. However, the impact on the effectiveness of a military organization is devastating. Following orders (A regulation is the same as an order) is ESSENTIAL.

Second, if as you suggest a member of the military chooses to disobey or ignore regulations and orders, so long as they are lawful, they MUST be held accountable. What happened with Lt. Bush is that he chooses to disobey several regulations (Drill Attendance, Maintain Flight qualification and taking his annual Flight Physical) and was not held accountable. He was REWARDED with an EARLY HONORABLE discharge as if he met his responsibilities. ANY other OFFICER who did what Lt. Bush did would have been disciplined as regulations prescribe for failing to obey the regulations.

I did not say that 400 pages of his military record were MISSING. That is what was released. What I am saying is the record of the Board to review his grounding is MISSING. The Order Grounding him was released and it states the reason he was grounded was because he failed to take the required physical. If GWB had not been given an Honorable Discharge he did not deserve, he would never have been elected Governor or President.

The other issue is WHY would GWB have refused to do something that is as routine as an annual physical and RISK creating a problem? Most likely because he was using Drugs!

Drmiler

There is PROOF he did not take the REQUIRED Physical and that he did not attend drills for a period of 5 months in 1972. He was to have been the subjected to the BOARD OF IQUIRARY after being grounded. All that did not take place even though there is proof Bush disobeyed Air Force Regulations. That could only happen because some high ranking officers did not deal with Bush they way Regulations required and the way any other officer would have been dealt with under the same situation!

"If Mr. Bush chooses to refuse orders then he would be put on Hack or brought up on charges. You yourself say that there is no record of this happening so based on your words and your souses he did not break the rules, or regulations or disobey the officer he reported to. He was grounded as the rules demand for not having a current physical on file."

There is no "IF” His own military records confirm Bush did not obey regulations. What is missing is the punishment for Bush disobeying those regulations. The fact he was not punished does not prove he did not disobey. To the contrary, Bush did disobey and not only was not disciplined but was REWARDED with an Honorable Discharge HE DID NOT EARN!I do not know what discipline the Board would have given Bush but I know it would not have been an Honorable Discharge. For failing to attend drills, the member was to be placed on Active Duty and subject to assignment as needed by the Air Force. That too was not done!

Here are some other facts about the Bush Air National Guard Service:

Bush claims he MET is obligations to the Guard:

Bush was trained as a pilot and the Government spent a lot of money to train
him to fly.

He was obligated to maintain enough flight hours to maintain qualification.
Pilots must drill TWO weekends per month in order to be able to meet the
MINIMUM Flying Hours. Some have claimed Bush attended drills to make up for
some missed drills had a GOOD Retirement Year in 1972-73. The problem is
pilots must attend two times the number than for a Good Retirement Year to meet the
flying hour’s requirement. Bush did not meet that requirement. That was confirmed by
by the officer in charge of personnel for the Air Guard during the time Bush was
in the Air Guard.

There was a mandatory test exercise that included Lt. Bush’s unit. It was to
Defend the U.S. It took place at the time Bush was not regularly attending Drills.
As a member of that unit, he was obligated to be part of the exercise. He failed to
Participate.

The secretary to Bush’s CO said that Bush was given a Written Order to complete his
Flight physical. She knows this because she typed that letter that Bush was given by
CO. She did say that the actual letter CBS used was not the letter she typed but that
it was exactly like the one she typed.


Therefore, since Bush failed to maintain his flight qualification because he did not attend the required drills and because he failed to take his physical, he DID NOT fulfill his commitments to the Air Guard and for that was rewarded with an Early Honorable Discharge.

If a pilot today did the same things as Bush in 1972-73, what do you think would be the results? I will BET it would not be an Early Honorable Discharge.